Talk:Hurricane Katrina

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Pending tasks for Hurricane Katrina:

edit - history - watch - purge

Subarticles to create

By region
By topic
  • Social effects of Hurricane Katrina (looting; price gouging)
  • Economic effects of Hurricane Katrina (petroleum; tourism)
  • Political effects of Hurricane Katrina (accusations of policy failures)
  • Humanitarian effects of Hurricane Katrina (death toll and relevant historical context; health concerns; homelessness/refugees)
  • Environmental effects of Hurricane Katrina (there is a small item under "political effects" but it is a separate subject. eg Reports of major oil spill in Missippi river, effect on Manatees in Lake Ponchatrane? a company in the area reportedly had huge mercury reserve, a primate research lab in the area had top level bio-hazards? does someone know detail on this kind of stuff?)
  • Institutions affected by Hurricane Katrina (would be useful to catalogue the facts vs the hearsay reports; eg prisons - prisoners drowned?, hospitals, which were evacuated when, by whom & resultant deaths etc.)
  • Literature and music inspired by Hurricane Katrina (We all know how many stories are being told. Some bars now won't let you repeat stories that you didn't witness yourself -- they don't want to waste time on the second-hand accounts. While Camille held a long dominion on hurricane lore along the Missippi coast and Hurricane Betsy accounts in N.O. ensured that most residents would carry hatchets to their attics, this was the Big One in far more than geographic scope and financial ramifications. The old South went down. No longer will the historic homes along Hwy 90 bear witness to that bygone era. The triteness of that phrase notwithstanding, there has been a loss of memory. Many long, vivid lives have been lost in Emergency Rooms all along the coast (the ones still functional ) and with them went connections to a slower pace of life, a community of reflection and story-telling. Air conditioning changed the South and brought in people from outside; Katrina was its death toll.)
Organization
  • Hurricane Katrina (contents) - list of pages and subsections for organization accross articles. Issues: separation of meteorological data and human interest data. Discern proper titles for subarticles and sections, and their order.

Notes:

  • As a courtesy, editors may use {{unsigned}} to help mark unsigned comments
  • ARCHIVES: Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. See archives: 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10


Hurricanes
This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical Cyclones, a project to systematically present information on tropical cyclones and storm seasons. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page (see Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information).


Contents

Looting and Violence

There is a note saying this is not conforming to NPOV. It appears there was looting and violence in the aftermath. (This can be expected, as the effects of the hurricane seemed to catch everyone off guard.) This should be mentioned. If the claims of looting etc. were found later to be exaggerated, this also should be mentioned.

This section does seem a little confused, and has some comments in it which should be removed. If no one wants to, I will have a go at cleaning it up, and remove the POV tag. I would say briefly that looting was reported, and that later, some claimed that the reports of looting were exaggerated. Wallie 10:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

CNN aired videos of bloody corpses on the ground, you should also mention the witness accounts by the foreigners.

The current write-up still seems too based on contemporary quotes, most of which have proven to be unreliable second-hand reports, rather than solid evidence. For example, Channel 4's Dispatches programme of 31 Oct 2005 interviewed Dr Greg Henderson, one of the doctors at the convention centre, who said that, despite all the reports of violence, he didn't treat a single victim of violence (although in a subsequent webchat, he says that, while reports did exaggerate the amount of gun or knife violence, he thinks there were a number of rapes: http://www.channel4.com/community/showcards/D/Dispatches_-_Hurricane_Katrina.html ). I'll try to find a transcript of the show so as to put exact quotes in the article. Bondegezou 14:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


I'm making an attempt to work on this. My goal is to keep as much content as possible, while putting it in perspective. I do have a POV on it so I welcome discussion on my attempts. Eventually, I hope to remove the POV banner. I'm hoping someone else does before I do. --Elliskev 01:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Great. The article at present just mentions that the claims of looting were exaggerated. Readers of the article would wonder what looting was reported in the first place. As you mention, the foreigners/their media reported violence... and so did the local media. The looting/violence story is an integral part of Katrina, just as it was with the San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. Wallie 06:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that the looting and violence were big stories and they deserve more than a small mention. At least three times that I recall, rescue operations were halted because the rescuers were being fired upon (or at least believed they were being fired on) by looters. Unfortunately, I guess most of the looters were never caught, and the city is still in dissaray, so that makes it difficult to cite official crime records or the like. Johntex\talk 21:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

JohnTex says that the looting and violence were big stories here. They certainly were overblown stories. The facts are that there were no reported rapes. There were no large numbers of assaults, and no homicides in the SuperDome, despite reports of the same. And rescue people say that they never actually stopped any rescue operations because of being shot at. Yet again another urban legend.

Category 3?????

article suggests that Katrina was only a Category 3 storm (and barely) when it made landfall. That makes no sense at all once you go beyond the ground estimates. There are several reasons:

1) Due to the strong winds and storm surge experienced, the wind gauges may have easily stopped functioning, which means it may not have picked up the strongest winds.

2) The pressure - 918 mb - would translate into about a 165 mph storm; while a deviation of 15 or 20 mph makes some sense, a deviation of 50 mph from its normal capacity??? There must be some major underestimation there.

3) The storm surge data, showing 25 to 35 feet, would be more typical of a Category 5 storm. While it may have withstood the modest weakening to a Category 4, there is no way a Category 3 storm can have such high storm surges on an open coastline.

4) With no real shear, how could a storm weaken from 175 mph to 115 mph that fast? Eyewall cycles alone would not do such. CrazyC83 23:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the NHC archives at 6 AM it had max sustained winds of 145mph, min pressure of 918 mb. At 8 AM it had max sustained winds of 135 mph, min pressure of 923 mb. But, that's always preliminary data. The NHC will go back and review all the wind data and everything else and almost always makes modifications after the fact.
Category 3 is up to 130 mph, so that's only losing 15 mph from the estimates of 145 mph at landfall, which falls into your "sensical deviation".
Pressure and Wind Speed, while related, aren't dispositive of each other. For example, Hurricane Ivan at one point had a minimum pressure of 919 and a wind speed of 135. The next readings showed 920/130, 916/140, 920/140, etc. You get the point. You can look at other historical data for other 2004 hurricanes here: [1]. There are nice charts giving all the pressure and corresponding wind speed readings.
So, I'm not sure what your point is. Katrina was originally thought to be a Category 4 (131-155), making landfall with 145 mph winds; the NHC is reviewing their data and said it might end up that it was actually a Category 3 (111-130) when it made landfall. Also, the "wind gauges" are onboard hurricane hunter aircraft, and therefore probably were not damaged by the high winds and storm surge.
Peyna 00:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a note along the lines of reinforcing meteorologists advisories that the category rating of hurricanes ... is only one of many measurements to classify ... take every hurricane warning seriously... would put it in perspective? Just a thought. I'm not sure I could word it effectively. --Elliskev 01:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

i find this scary. If it was only a 3 what would a 4 or 5 do?? i thought Katrina would be the worst but it looks like we could get one much worse.

VERY small details : "Katrina weakened thereafter, losing hurricane-strength more than 150 miles (160 km) ..." I couldn't determine the distance from the coast to Jackson from the web, but either "150" or "160" is wrong. Also "Shelters in Texas" - the non-polically-correct term "refugees" slipped in. "Evacuees" is used elsewhere. 81.250.195.107 04:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

  • * * * * * *

I believe I can shed some light on this. First I'd like to note that I just created an account, but in the past month have executed significant edits to the Hurricane Katrina page in sections Storm History and Non-Governmental Charitable Response, in order to include information about the MS and AL Gulf Coasts, and the LA coast. I also just rewrote the Loop Current entry section on how the loop current affects hurricanes.

OK, it is absolutely true that Katrina hit the MS Gulf Coast as a Cat 3, not as a higher-intensity storm. Intensity is measured by the highest winds. This of course highlights the problem with the current five-category rating system. At the time it was created, it was a huge improvement over the previous system for categorizing hurricanes (um...nothing). Note that categories 3-5 represent "major" hurricanes.

The main problem with this categorization as it reflects on Katrina (and Rita as well), is 1) it does not necessarily reflect the storm surge, and 2) it does not take into account the size of the storm. For both Katrina and Rita, the surge that was generated when they were Cat 5 storms did not have time to dissipate prior to landfall, so meteorologists generally recognise that the surge for these storms was at a Cat 5 level, and indeed the NHC advisories did leave the surge warnings at the Cat 5 level for Katrina prior to landfall, even when the storm started to weaken. With Katrina, the storm surge was exacerbated by the shape of the coast in relation to its trajectory at landfall; the upside-down-L shape of the LA/MS coasts took the brunt of the surge, which was funneled in part by the strong western winds of the northern eyewall. Detailed high water measurements are occuring along the coast which will result in a study of the surge. However high water measurements include wave action at the shore, and also include rising water due to the copious landfall, so it will never be 100% clear exactly how much of the high water was due to surge in each specific location (even though it is clear that it is mostly due to surge).

OK...the size of the storm. In both cases, the large size of the storm spread the surge over a much greater area than ever previously experienced along the Gulf Coast. By comparison, Camille was a compact but strong Cat 5 hurricane at landfall along the MS Gulf Coast, and its high surge extended not more than 15-20 miles to the east of the eye, with the highest surge limited to a very narrow strip of shoreline. By contrast, more than 50 miles east of where the center of the eye made landfall (the MS/LA border), Katrina's surge was over 20 feet, and the area of highest surge, 30 feet (and possibly higher), extended for a great many miles (at least 40 miles of coastline and probably more, going west from Biloxi). Unofficial surge numbers I have determined in Jackson County are 25-26 feet in the SW corner around Gulf Hills and just inland of there, 22-24 feet in Ocean Springs, 15 feet into Mary Walker Bayou of Gautier, 16-18 feet in Pascagoula, and Mobile officially is going with something like 11-12 feet. Ocean Springs is about 50 miles to the east of the LA/MS border.

Finally...back to the Cat 3 winds. Gulfport and Biloxi area received the highest winds from the eastern eyewall (this also includes the SW portion of Jackson County that bordered Biloxi Back Bay). The sustained winds were definitely not over 120-125mph, which is Cat 3, and lasted approximately 90 minutes. There was Cat 3 damage in Harrison and Jackson counties at these mentioned locations. Almost all of the tremendous coastal damage was due to the high storm surge. What would a Cat 4 be like? You don't want to know. As far as Plaquemines and St Bernard Parishes, that damage also would be for the most part due to storm surge. Other areas definitely received extreme winds but I don't have any data on these winds. The way to identify these areas is mainly blow-down, which requires winds above say 110mph. These areas include Plaquemines Parish (which would be the only area that would have received Cat 4 winds and Cat 4 damage; however the entire area was likely underwater and so most of the evident damage is clearly done by storm surge and waves). In Plaquemines Parish aerial photos of the damage, many acres trees snapped off at the base, and dropping to the NW, can be seen. This is clearly high wind damage, corresponding to the direction of the strong NE eyewall winds at landfall there. Other areas with a lot of blowdown include Slidell LA and Pearlington and Kiln MS. A strong area of the northern eyewall rotated to the west over these areas at landfall. Also, generally, strong winds were felt along the entire 3 MS coastal counties, as all those counties lost over 50% of their trees. Significant tree loss also occured to the north of Jackson County, in George County, due to the NE movement of the storm after landfall and the strong feeder band going north over Jackson and Mobile counties for some time after landfall. So, in addition to the sustained winds, clearly there were a lot of gusts of higher winds above 110mph over a large area of southern MS. Hattiesburg received significant hurricane-force winds for some hours. The windfield was quite extensive in size. Early on, a gust to 118mph was recorded at Pascagoula (and documented by NHC in their 8am advisory) around 7:30am, when the eye was three hours away from making landfall (!), shortly before the roof blew off of the EOC there. Pascagoula is about 65 miles east of the MS/LA state line.

Hope this answers some of your questions! Mkieper 19:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

  • * * * * * *

Regarding the relationship of lowest central pressure to windspeed, they do not always tally as expected. An example of this is when Katrina exited FL into the GOM. Many thought she would 'blow up' immediately, but intrusion of dry air kept the windspeed down (no higher than 115mph) for almost two days (from 3am Friday until midnight Saturday); however, the pressure kept inching down that entire time, and Katrina was the type of hurricane that hung onto every last mb of pressure drop and didn't let it go. At 10pm Friday the pressure was down to 939mb, which would be more indicative of a Cat 4 with 140mph winds, and the highest windspeed was still only 115mph at that time. Once solidly over the loop current the winds did catch up to the pressure drops. Again, before landfall, intrusion of dry air, which came very close to the core, and which before landfall eroded into the SW eyewall, dropped the windspeed down well before the pressure drops. Also having part of the storm over land dropped the windspeed down before the official landfall of the eye along the MS coastline. It is actually very typical for winds to drop significantly before the pressure drop, at landfall, due to friction with the land and removal of the warm water source for strengthening. This year Dennis's windspeed dropped rapidly as it approached land and started to fall apart (also, the highest winds did not come down to the ground level in some places after landfall, but remained aloft...I don't have the knowledge to explain this phenomenon further so if you have more questions on this perhaps a met can respond with more detailed info).

Mkieper 20:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Bus Discussion

Someone need to do a NPOV check for the discussion of the buses that were not used for evacuation. One sentence that was particularly glaring was: "Any licensed driver is suitable in an emergency." This looks like POV to me, and it leads me to doubt the neutrality of the whole discussion.--140.247.240.181 05:39, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Early this morning, user:64.12.116.8 made a large number of undiscussed deletions regarding the bus situation (and the conditions in the shelters, and added material about the American Red Cross that wasn't supported by the cite given). However, there does appear to be a lot on the bus discussion, and - while deleting it entirely isn't appropriate - an NPOV check in the light of day is probably needed. Simesa 08:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I made some fair and accurate changes to the obviously biased presentation of information about the use of buses. NOTHING that I changed is unable to be supported - everything that I changed is supported by the evidence readily available.
Yet it was changed back to the biased, partisan version that was faulty. THAT was wrong.
What you, user:64.12.116.8, did was to remove en masse and without cite or discussion the text and picture. Both this IP and user:205.188.116.130 (who wrote the above comment) have a history of doing this. If you think the text is in error, find a reasonably competent source that says so and I'm confident that soon a balanced presentation will be made. Simesa 20:44, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I am not well versed on HOW things get changed here, and it appears that there has been an horrific amount of biased postings on this subject, with smears against Nagin, etc. Wikipedia says that we should FEEL free to change items that are false or inaccurate. That is what I did. As an inexperienced poster who has done a great deal of research on this issue to learn the facts and refute the lies and misstatements and smears, I was unaware that my doing what Wikipedia SEEMS to encourage me to do would be an issue. I will see if I have time tomorrow to substantiate EVERYTHING that I posted as well as debunk those items that I removed as irrelevant, distortions or unfairly biased versions of events. I easily CAN find cites for EVERYTHING I said, and so could any reasonable researcher, and as such, it would seem to me that it would be up to those that dispute MY evidence to disprove it, which they could NOT do. I believe that MY IP is simply AOL Online, so it is unreasonable to suggest that *I* have a history of doing this. I do not know what ANY other poster has deleted or added, and I do not know if they do so unfairly or with bias. *I* know that *I* did NOT do that! (preceding unsigned comment by 152.163.100.72 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC))

Please start with Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers, and I apologize for not spotting that you were an AOL user. I do suggest you create an account (all you need do is select a username and password) so that messages can be left for you. Perhaps you'd like to discuss editing with an administrator? Simesa 05:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
It is hard to recognize a claim that "I" does something when "I" can not be identified. (SEWilco 05:57, 13 October 2005 (UTC))

I hope that an editor can review this information and use it to compile a fair exposition of the issues involving the evacuation and creation of last resort shelters in New Orleans. Please see the edits I attempted to insert and the deletions I made as an anonymous poster on 10/11 or 10/12/05.

The link that the original author provides to the Washington Times story http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050909-113107-3180r.htm repeats the lie that photos showed 2000 buses under water, and the distortion that Nagin could have used those buses. That story alleges that there was a completed city of New Orleans evacuation plan that was ignored. That is untrue. There was not a completed evacuation plan - it was still a draft document. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9231926/ The state evacuation plan suggested that buses, including school buses, MAY be used, but it was not part of any plan to guarantee use of buses to move people out of the city. Another link included by the author points to a report by Lisa Myers, previously linked to http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9231926/, and in her report, she states that the report is in the draft stages. In fact, the city DID have plans in the works to inform residents of New Orleans on how to act and react to natural disasters and calls for evacuations. "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation." That plan was close to being complete when the storm hit, and was scheduled to be mailed out to residents in mid-September. "Production likely will continue through August. Officials want to get the DVDs into the hands of pastors and community leaders as hurricane season reaches its height in September." This article in the New Orleans Times-Picayune http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1122184560198030.xml?nola explains in detail what was likely to be included in that informational packet to be sent out throughout the city. "An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said. But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need. In an interview at the opening of this year's hurricane season, New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews acknowledged that the city is overmatched. "It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out," he said in a interview in late May."

The author of the existing encyclopedic entry on evacuation issues also states "some have claimed school bus drivers were not available". In fact, Nagin and Blanco stated that they searched for bus drivers but were unable to find many that were willing to risk their lives to enter the city before the storm hit. In an interview with Tim Russert on Meet the Press on the Sunday, September 11th, after the storm hit, Nagin said "You can't find drivers that would stay behind with a category five hurricane, you know, pending(sic) down on New Orleans. We barely got enough drivers to move people on Sunday or -- on Sunday, Saturday and Sunday, to move them to the Superdome. We barely had enough drivers for that. So sure, we had the assets, but the drivers just weren't available." And later in the same interview Nagin said "The planning was always in getting people to higher ground, getting them to safety. That's what we meant by evacuation, get them out of their homes which most people are under sea level, get them to higher ground and then depend upon our state and our federal officials to move them out of harm's way after the storm has hit." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240461/ As Nagin says in this interview, and other emergency preparedness officials from across the nation have stated, "Keep in mind, we always assume that after two to three days the cavalry will be coming." Nagin said that his "fundamental assumption was get as many people to safety as possible, and that the cavalry would be coming within two to three days, and they didn't come." After the storm hit, Blanco ordered that school districts around the state provide school buses and bus drivers to help evacuate those trapped in New Orleans. http://2theadvocate.com/stories/090205/new_buses001.shtml Some school districts did not provide buses however. Those school districts were those that had contracts with private companies to provide transportation to school kids. "Among Baton Rouge-area school systems, only West Feliciana Parish schools, where most bus drivers are independent contractors, is holding school today. "I don't have the power to tell my bus drivers that they have to go to New Orleans," Superintendent Lloyd Lindsey said." This is similar to the status of buses and bus drivers in New Orleans, and so not only would the Orleans Parish School Superintendent not be able to order bus drivers to evacuate residents, but the Mayor and the Governor would have had no rights or abilities either. "When the water rose, the state began scrambling to find buses. Officials pleaded with various parishes across the state for school buses. But by Tuesday, Aug. 30, as news reports of looting and violence appeared, local officials began resisting. Governor Blanco said the bus drivers, many of them women, "got afraid to drive. So then we looked for somebody of authority to drive the school buses." http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050911/ZNYT02/509110473 This same article, originally published by the New York Times, explains that senior FEMA officials in Washington, people who were not political appointees but were career employees with significant disaster preparedness experience, saw the need for delivery of buses by FEMA as early as the Friday before the storm. "As early as Friday, Aug. 26, as Hurricane Katrina moved across the Gulf of Mexico, officials in the watch center at FEMA headquarters in Washington discussed the need for buses. Someone said, "We should be getting buses and getting people out of there," recalled Leo V. Bosner, an emergency management specialist with 26 years at FEMA and president of an employees' union. Others nodded in agreement, he said. "We could all see it coming, like a guided missile," Mr. Bosner said of the storm. "We, as staff members at the agency, felt helpless. We knew that major steps needed to be taken fast, but, for whatever reasons, they were not taken." These experts did not suggest that the city should have been evacuating their own residents using buses, but rather thought that FEMA should have provided buses from outside the area as well as drivers to staff those buses.

So, Nagin clarifies what the planning was on getting those people to safety who could not or would not drive themselves out of town. That plan was to get those people to a Shelter of Last Resort. He states that it was NOT to get them out of the city - it was to get them to a safe haven, and they did offer that option to their residents. This is contrary to the assertions of many on the right - that the evacuation plan called for the movement of people out of the city. Nagin says the plan called to move them to shelter within the city, and that is what was offered and provided and utilized. If the storm passed without causing widespread damage, as happened in Hurricane Ivan, they could have simply allowed residents to return to their homes. If massive flooding and/or wind damage made the city unlivable, as happened after Hurricane Katrina, then the citizens that chose to go to the Superdome would be evacuated after the storm had passed and it was safe to bring supplies and equipment in.

Evacuation experts state that it would have taken 2000 buses to evacuate those left in the city. That is assuming 50 people on commercial buses with some personal supplies and/or suitcases and belongings being stored under the bus. There were many fewer buses than 2000 available in the city.

As the urban legends site Snopes.com http://snopes.com/katrina/photos/buses.asp points out in reference to the much-published picture of school buses in a flooded parking lot, there are many factors to consider above and beyond the simple presence of buses. "Such a claim presumes an availability of resources (e.g., experienced drivers, fuel) and workable logistics (e.g., sufficient means of notifying and getting residents to departure points, sufficiently clear roads for multiple trips out of town and back, adequate facilities within a reasonable driving distance capable of providing shelter, food, and water to a large number of people for an indeterminate period of time on short notice) that may or may not have been present. (There's no guarantee that all the buses shown in this picture were even in working condition.) And, given the particular geography of New Orleans, any such evacuation would have had to have begun well in advance of Hurricane Katrina to avoid exposing residents to the potential danger of being stuck in buses on traffic-clogged roads in the path of an approaching hurricane. Moreover, any type of evacuation effort would have incurred a substantial outlay of funds from local and/or state governments — while everyone agrees with the advantage of hindsight that would have been money well spent, many taxpayers might not have been left feeling so enthusiastic about footing the bill for an unnecessary evacuation had Hurricane Katrina not proved so damaging.

From an interview on September 10, 2005 with the New Orleans Times-Picayune, Mayor Nagin explained that he did NOT control the buses or the bus drivers that belonged to a private company and were used to transport school children. http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_10.html#078692 He explained how the situation played itself out. "But he said there were various logistical hurdles that made it hard to use that equipment, and the buses would have hardly created a dent in the size of the crowds anyway. “It’s up for analysis,” he said. “But we didn’t have enough buses. I don’t control the school buses. And who was going to drive them even if we commandeered them? If I’d have marshaled 50 RTA buses, and a few school buses, it still wouldn’t have been nearly enough. Our plan was always to use the buses to evacuate to the Dome as a shelter of last resort, and from there, rely on state and federal resources.” Yet again he explains how the city DID implement the evacuation plan they intended to, and so accusations that Nagin did not follow that draft plan that suggested using buses to move people out of low-lying areas are without factual support. In this same newspaper interview, the following points are made. "Part of the discomfort in the Dome and Convention Center owed to the lack of toilet facilities after the city’s water system went down late Wednesday. The city’s hurricane plan calls for portable toilets at shelters, but none ever arrived. Nagin said his understanding was that the National Guard was in charge of providing them." http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_10.html#078692 This means that the people in the Superdome had food, water, and working plumbing at least on some level through Wednesday. The storm hit on Monday morning, the state of emergency was declared on Friday into Saturday, two to three days before the storm hit.

And with another view of the feasibility of using city buses or private groups to evacuate people to other locations, read this article from the New Orleans Times-Picayune. http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1120800316204660.xml "In past years planners have talked about recruiting churches and their small private fleets into an evacuation effort. The idea, called Operation Brother's Keeper, has largely withered in the face of the complexity of the details, said Kay Wilkins, a spokeswoman for the American Red Cross. The state Legislature last year killed a bill to give immunity from liability to any person or organization providing free transportation during an emergency, except in cases of gross negligence. Critics of the bill said volunteers could be covered by insurance and questioned whether the proposal would be constitutional." "The city assumes residents will look first to family and friends for rides out of the city, she said. If events warrant evacuation, the Regional Transit Authority will contribute part of its 364-bus fleet to an effort that will end at undisclosed shelters north of Lake Pontchartrain, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said. Not all the buses will be available, she cautioned. "We might be talking about as many as 100," she said. The agency would hold much of its fleet back to continue operating on city streets until forced to shut down by a city curfew. The number of evacuation buses is further limited by the number of volunteer drivers who sign up to drive them away, she said. Even if the entire fleet was used, the buses would carry only about 22,000 people out of the city -- far short of the 134,000 people estimated to be without cars in a recent University of New Orleans study."

As Media Matters for America documents, The Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050906-122931-2126r.htm alleged that there were 2000 buses available for evacuation use. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005. Many other conservative pundits echoed this claim. In 2003, the Orleans Parish school district operated 324 buses. From the state of Louisiana's own records, the city buses totaled 364 in May, 2005. that totals under 700 buses, if all of them are actually running, many less than the 2000 claimed in the Washington Times article.

The New York Times claimed on September 4, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04reconstruct.html?ex=1129348800&en=3983fd4a513d95e3&ei=5070&pagewanted=print that in order to evacuate 100,000 stranded citizens and visitors in New Orleans, 2000 buses would have been required. Perhaps that is the original source of the figure of 2000 buses, but it is clear that there never was anywhere close to that number available.

Another is that using buses was part of a city of New Orleans evacuation plan. However, there was no city plan that was being used. The city evacuation plan was still in the development phase, having been initiated because of Mayor Nagin's insights after Hurricane Ivan struck.

St Charles Parish ordered their mandatory evacuation at 9 AM on Saturday, August 27th, 2005. Mayor Nagin was well aware of the need to evacuate the city as early as possible, but he was also aware of a compact within the state that Southern Parishes such as St Charles and Plaquemines needed to evacuate first. In an article by the New Orleans Times-Picayune, Nagin addressed this issue. "New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin encouraged Jefferson Parish officials to follow the state evacuation plan, which calls for low-lying coastal areas to evacuate first. Jefferson officials broke with the plan to call for an early evacuation for Hurricane Dennis in July. Nagin, in an interview with Channel 4 news, said all officials need to make quick decisions to handle the approaching storm. “The problem with this storm is that it’s going to compress everything,” Nagin said. “We have a shorter window to deal with this storm and we’ve got to get people to start evacuating.” http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_27.html#074505 Later that same morning, "Plaquemines Parish has declared a mandatory evacuation. Officials were in the process of picking up special-needs residents at mid-day Saturday. Jefferson Parish officials declared a voluntarily evacutation for most of the parish but a mandatory evacuation for the coastal areas of Grand isle, Crown Point, Lafitte and Barataria. St. Bernard Parish has recommended all residents evacuate, though it likely will not declare a mandatory evacuation because the parish won’t offer shelters, said Emergency Management Director Larry Ingargiola." Also, "St. Tammany Parish has issued an evacuation order - with residents asked to leave by noon Sunday. This especially applies to residents south of Interstate 12."

In an official statement later on Saturday, made during a joint afternoon press conference with Governor Blanco, the mayor said he would stick with the state’s evacuation plan and not officially call for residents to leave until 30 hours before expected landfall, allowing residents in low-lying surrounding areas to leave first. But he recommended residents in low-lying areas of the city, such as Algiers and the 9th Ward, get a heard start. “We want you to take this a little more seriously and start moving — right now, as a matter of fact,” Nagin said. http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_27.html#074505

So, Nagin suggested that people start leaving on Saturday, but he respected the state evacuation plan and refrained from calling for a mandatory evacuation until early Sunday morning to allow those residents of the southernmost parishes to get past the city of New Orleans so that they would not be stuck in bottlenecks caused by evacuating New Orleanians.

At 9:30 AM on Sunday, August 28, 2005, The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported that Nagin had called for a mandatory evacuation. http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html "The Superdome has been opened for people with special needs and as a shelter of last resort. Residents should call (504) 568-3200 to reserve space in this shelter. The city has set up ten pickup areas to take people to emergency shelters. RTA buses will be picking up citizens for free and take them to these shelters. The number to call for pickup areas is 1-800-469-4828. Residents are asked to bring food for 3-5 days, pillows, blankets, and any other supplies needed." Also, "Nagin said the dome’s availability to residents doesn’t mean that going there is a good idea. “I want to emphasize, the first choice of every citizen should be to leave the city,” he said. He noted that the Dome is likely to be without power for days — and possibly weeks — after the storm fits, and said it will not be a comfortable place. At the same time, the mayor said, going to the dome is a better option than staying home. Many homes are likely to suffer serious damage and flood." After the mandatory evacuation notice was announced and the Superdome was declared to be the Shelter of Last Resort, "to make sure word of the mandatory evacuation gets out, Nagin said that police and fire crews would be driving through neighborhoods Sunday with bullhorns, directing people to leave." On "Sunday night, the military delivered 360,000 meals-ready-to-eat to the 30,000 people using the Superdome as a shelter. Hot food was served Sunday night and Monday morning by workers with the Orleans Parish Sheriff's Office." http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_29.html#074765

On Tuesday morning at 8:55, The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported in their online breaking news weblog that FEMA will be providing 475 buses. Governor Blanco said that she wanted all the people evacuated within 2 days because of deteriorating conditions in the Superdome and other refuges. http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_31.html#075326 "Blanco said she wanted the Superdome — which had become a shelter of last resort for about 20,000 people — evacuated within two days, along with other gathering points for storm refugees." It appears that FEMA told her that the buses were on their way, as she said "We've sent buses in. We will be either loading them by boat, helicopter, anything that is necessary."

On Wednesday morning at 10 AM, "FEMA is providing 475 buses for the convoy and the Astrodome's schedule has been cleared through December for housing evacuees, a spokeswoman for Texas Gov. Rick Perry said." Around lunchtime on Wednesday, "Department of Social Services Secretary Ann Williamson said the buses should start rolling later Wednesday. About 475 vehicles have been arranged to ferry the evacuees to Houston." http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_31.html#075326 These are more examples of the belief among both states' governors that the buses were well on their way. They were not very close though, either on Tuesday or on Wednesday.

Hours after the storm hit, FEMA promised buses. http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml " Hours after the hurricane hit Aug. 29, the Federal Emergency Management Agency announced a plan to send 500 commercial buses into New Orleans to rescue thousands of people left stranded on highways, overpasses and in shelters, hospitals and homes. On the day of the storm, or perhaps the day after, FEMA turned down the state's suggestion to use school buses because they are not air conditioned, Blanco said Friday in an interview. Even after levees broke and residents were crowding the Louisiana Superdome, then-FEMA Director Mike Brown was bent on using his own buses to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco said. The state had sent 68 school buses into the city on Monday. Blanco took over more buses from Louisiana school systems and sent them in on Wednesday, two days after the storm. She tapped the National Guard to drive them. Each time the buses emptied an area, more people would appear, she said. The buses took 15,728 people to safety, a Blanco aide said. But the state's fleet of school buses wasn't enough. On Wednesday, with the FEMA buses still not in sight, Blanco called the White House to talk to Bush and ended up speaking to Chief of Staff Andy Card. "I said, 'Even if we had 500 buses, they've underestimated the magnitude of this situation, and I think I need 5,000 buses, not 500,'" Blanco recounted. "'But, Andy, those 500 are not here,'" the governor said.

Card promised to get Blanco more buses. Later Wednesday night, Blanco walked into the State Police Communications Center and asked if anyone knew anything about the buses. An officer told her the buses were just entering the state. "I said, 'Do you mean as in North Louisiana, which is another six hours from New Orleans?,'" Blanco recalled in the interview. "He said, 'Yes, m'am.'"

It was at that point, Blanco said, that she realized she had made a critical error. "I assumed that FEMA had staged their buses in near proximity," she said. "I expected them to be out of the storm's way but accessible in one day's time." It was late Wednesday. The buses wouldn't get to New Orleans until Thursday. By then, many of the sickest and the weakest were dead or dying."

{So, on Tuesday morning, Blanco believed that the buses were close to the city, and would be able to evacuate all those in shelters in 2 days. However, it was not until 2 days later, Thursday morning, that the buses promised by FEMA actually arrived.}

"I had security in the knowledge that there were 500 buses," she said. "Mike had emphasized the buses to me personally. That was not my first concern until I realized that they were not there." Meanwhile, the state continued to send school buses into the affected areas. One of Blanco's aides, Leonard Kleinpeter, said FEMA told him at one point that the state could stop sending school buses because the agency was going to bring in helicopters and use them instead of the commercial buses that still weren't there. Blanco told Kleinpeter to ignore those instructions. "She said, 'I'll be damned. You keep loading the wagons on the school buses,'" Kleinpeter said." (preceding unsigned comment by 13:59, 13 October 2005 (talk • contribs) 152.163.100.72)

How was the long-expected 30 feet of water over the city reflected in the plans? The intent was to move them to higher ground which would still to leave people dozens of feet underwater? (SEWilco 19:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC))
This was an interesting and illuminating article. What's really striking, though, is this quote from Nagin: "Keep in mind, we always assume that after two to three days the cavalry will be coming." The "cavalry" DID show up within two days - the morning after the storm passed, the Red Cross and the Salvation Army arrived with food and water for the evacuees in the Superdome and the Convention Center. They were turned away by state and local officials who didn't want the evacuees "setting down." (preceding unsigned comment by 15:28, 13 October 2005 (talk • contribs) Brendano)

This paragraph above is inaccurate and misleading. FEMA has told local emergency preparedness officials for years that they should hang on by their fingernails for 48-60 hours, up to a maximum of 72 hours, until *the calvary* arrives. The *calvary* is substantial FEMA help. The head of Orleans Parish's Emergency Management "Ebbert said he knew conditions in the Superdome would be "horrible," but Hurricane Pam had predicted a massive federal response within two days, and Ebbert said the city's plan was to "hang in there for 48 hours and wait for the cavalry." [2] Because of changes made in the 1970's, where the American Red Cross threatened to stop being the primary source for charitable assistance after disasters without further cooperation and additional promises of support if required from the Federal Government, the ARC *is* the organization of choice to set up shelters. [3][4] However, one of the misleading parts from the above paragraph is the implication that without the ARC and the Salvation Army being allowed to set up shelters, food and water was denied to people stranded in New Orleans. That is not a factually accurate assessment of the actual situation. The ARC decided about 10 years ago to remove ALL efforts to have storm shelters set up in both New Orleans and many surrounding parishes in the Mississippi Delta area of Louisiana because they could not guarantee the safety of their volunteer relief workers OR guarantee that the shelters would be safe from all threats from a natural disaster. [5] "No shelters within the city would be free of risk from rising water. Because of this threat, the American Red Cross will not open shelters in New Orleans during hurricanes greater than category 2; staffing them would put employees and volunteers at risk." The Red Cross had no shelters set up in Assumption, Jefferson, St. Bernard, or Orleans parishes. [6] According to the Federal Department of Homeland Security's National Response Plan, specifically Emergency Support Function Component #6[7], the ARC does not only provide shelters that will get people struck by disasters food and water, but they also are the organization that provides bulk shipment of those resources too. "Mass care services include the "sheltering of victims, organizing feeding operations, providing emergency first aid at designated sites, collecting and providing information on victims to family members, and coordinating bulk distribution of emergency relief items." The fact that no shelters were set up by the ARC did not prevent food and water being delivered to these people. In fact the Louisiana National Guard had food and water pre-staged at the Superdome. [8] FEMA provided food and water to the stranded residents from mid-week on, from truck deliveries to supplies dropped by helicopter. The ARC had food, water, and hygiene supplies staged and ready to go into the city. Those supplies could have gone into the city with the ARC if the city were inhabitable and there were no plans to evacuate those left in the city, or those supplied could have and DID go into the city with National Guard troops and FEMA rescue and disater recovery personnel. It is a distortion of the facts to suggest that without the physical presence of the Red Cross and/or the Salvation Army inside the city limits of New Orleans that people were left without food and water. The ARC had the food and water necessary to support these people before the storm ever hit. They have chosen for years to not staff any shelters in New Orleans because of the potential dangers during the storms. The Red Cross often moves into areas after storms have passed once those areas become safe - they wait until the winds have died down, for example, just as police and firefighters do not venture out in the midst of these storms. New Orleans never became a safe place to set up a shelter in the hours and days AFTER the storm hit. The levees and floodwalls started failing before Katrina's major winds had even hit New Orleans[9], and within 24 hours the leaders of the city and the state and the Army Corps of Engineers realized that they were going to be unable to stem the water, and as a result 80% of the city would flood and it would be days and weeks before they could remove that water. On Tuesday morning "The governor of Louisiana says everyone needs to leave New Orleans due to flooding from Hurricane Katrina. "We've sent buses in. We will be either loading them by boat, helicopter, anything that is necessary." Once that decision was made, the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security, with the agreement of the American Red Cross, said that the ARC would not be setting up any shelters in New Orleans. It is fraudulent to suggest that they were turned away by state and local officials in any kind of unreasonable efforts. The Red Cross does not set up shelters in dangerous areas, per their own standards. The Red Cross does not set up shelters in areas that are to be evacuated. The lack of a Red Cross shelter did not mean that those people waiting to be evacuated were without food or water. There were supplies prepositioned at the site for those that came with nothing. There were clear directives from the city administration that people coming to the Superdome before the storm should bring supplies for a 3-5 day stay with them. "Residents are asked to bring food for 3-5 days, pillows, blankets, and any other supplies needed." [10] And FEMA and the National Guard delivered food and water during the aftermath of the storm until all the evacuees were removed from the sites. According to a Washington Post article on 9/10/05 [11], by Sunday "FEMA had already stockpiled for immediate distribution 2.7 million liters of water, 1.3 million meals ready to eat and 17 million pounds of ice, a Department of Homeland Security official said. But Louisiana received a relatively small portion of the supplies; for example, Alabama got more than five times as much water for distribution. "It was what they would move for a normal hurricane -- business as usual versus a superstorm," concluded Mark Ghilarducci, a former FEMA official now working as a consultant for Blanco." The food and water was in the region, and as such, the fact that no official Red Cross shelter was set up in New Orleans did not adversely affect the ability of people to receive supplies. It is the fact that FEMA did not get those supplies into the city in a timely fashion. They knew the storm was going to hit on Saturday, and as such they had plenty of lead-time to get the supplies in there after the storm passed, but they failed to do so, and it was because of that shortcoming and other mistakes that people really started suffering from Wednesday and beyond.


And in reply to SEWilco's suggestion that a complete flooding of New Orleans with the highest possible floodwaters would have left those in the SuperDome under water, it is not true. The Superdome is 20 stories high, and many of the seats would be above any potential water that could have filled the floor of the structure. [12] The Mayor and his spokemen strongly encouraged all that could go and would go to leave the city on Saturday and Sunday. They also told people that chose to go to the Superdome that they should bring 3-5 days worth of food, water and other necessities. Had people gone to the Superdome, and had the flooding been worse in the city, there still would have existed safe havens inside the Superdome. (preceding unsigned comment by 17:14, 13 October 2005 (talk • contribs) 152.163.100.72)

I just got back, and promise to look at this shortly. Simesa 00:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Are the buses really this relevant? --Elliskev 00:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I made some fairly simple 'edits' to the bus info that was posted - it was removed because not enough documentation of the facts was included. The buses are NOT all that important. However, it IS important to NOT include lies and distortions, and there are quite a few included currently. My changes to the existing commentary about the buses was several deletions and a couple of changes to the partisan wording. (preceding unsigned comment by 22:17, 13 October 2005 (talk • contribs) 152.163.100.72)

Quote on Gulf of Mexico Sea-Surface Temperatures

  • World temperatures keep rising [13]
  • Climate data show 2005 on track to be hottest on record
  • By Juliet Eilperin
  • The Washington Post
  • Updated: 12:30 a.m. ET Oct. 13, 2005
  • "And a scientist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration determined that sea surface temperatures in the Gulf of Mexico were higher in August than at any time since 1890"

Simesa 01:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality?

In my opinion (B.A. from Spellman) this article is biased against African-Americans. I'd like to see some real facts instead of an article that looks like it was written by the Bush Admin.

Just my 2 cents (fitty) Reparaizins 20:50, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite specific instances? It's a fairly long article. Also, the vandalism you committed earlier on the article by writing "Bush hates blacks" into the article pretty much negates any respectability your claim will get regardless of any degree you claim to have. --Holderca1 20:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, the {{bias}} template implies that the ENTIRE article is biased; while sections of the article are definitely far from NPOV, other parts (the intro and first three sections) are about as NPOV as it gets. Can we really claim that stating that Hurricane Katrina spawned tornadoes reflects inherent bias? I don't think it does. The {{npov-section}} template, applied to whichever section(s) are off the mark, would be a better choice. - jredmond 21:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Holderca1 — easy there. He's new, and NPOV has many nuances.
Just don't see how she can claim it is POV when she put the POV in there. --Holderca1 18:20, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

She even mispelled her alma mater. It looks like you should think before you write next time.

Neutrality regarding anarchists?

Quoting: "However, in the Algiers neighborhood of New Orleans the US military, FEMA, and the Red Cross are sending people needing help over to a tent set up by anarchists, dubbed the "Mayday Mutual Aid Medical Station," located in front of the Masjib Bilal Mosque."

where is anything supporting the description of these people as anarchists, of any sort?--Vidkun 15:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks like vandalism that was missed. Found the changes, [14], [15], made by an anon without documenting it. I am deleting it from the article. --Holderca1 23:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Linking to Emergency and Disaster Management

This comment is not strictly relating to Hurricane Katrina, but by posting here I hope to find likeminded people. The well established academic fields of Disaster management and Emergency management are not (what I have seen) mentioned in this text. In addition, their articles are small and often incoherent. I am about to take on the task of improving this. It is however a huge task. I will try to set up a wikiproject for it. Post on my talkpage if you are interested. --Drdan 10:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

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